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[RoninTuna]

Last night after some Laguna Seca practice Feldynn, Allstar, Jayz and I did some conceptual testing for some Nascar Restrictor plate racing. After a couple ten lap stints we had not found the exact power level for Jayz's desired results but we did however find a lot of paletability in the oval racing.

We started out with the cars cut down to 50% and they fell about fifteen miles an hour shy of what we where looking to achieve. by the time I left for work we had the cars running around 480 HP which was still a little slow. Jayz said he was going to continue working on the specifics of the power output. I figure in the mean time I can post this thread and open it for discussion and some thoughts as well as gauge interest in some possible old fashioned restrictor plate endurance races.

And hopefully whoever decides to drive the #42 Target car won't go out and smoke the jet dryers when we do race 

[Feldynn]

It was certainly an interesting experiment, after Ronin left Psychophreak joined so we stayed at 4 and I think we finally settled at 503hp.

Generally I'm not too keen on racing on oval tracks, drafting and such but I did enjoy the testing, some of that might have been down to the jovial testing atmosphere and even though the test races were fairly short (10 laps) we did throw out "Cautions" so everyone could stay together for drafting.

One thing that did strike me last night is that it would likely make a great team event, basically so you always have a partner to bump draft with. 

On a side note I'm also curious to see how the detuned Nascars work on road courses too, I've tried the full power ones before and found them a bit unwieldy but if they're easier to control at around 500hp then it might open up the possibility of a race series too as well as a single endurance race.

For those that really like the side by side oval racing I think this definitely has a lot of potential!

[DesertSniper72]

I have wondered why the Nascars haven't been put on road tracks. I would think that would be fun, but everyone seems to think they can only run on ovals.

[RoninTuna]

It was certainly an interesting experiment, after Ronin left Psychophreak joined so we stayed at 4 and I think we finally settled at 503hp.

Generally I'm not too keen on racing on oval tracks, drafting and such but I did enjoy the testing, some of that might have been down to the jovial testing atmosphere and even though the test races were fairly short (10 laps) we did throw out "Cautions" so everyone could stay together for drafting.

So 503 seems to be the spot then, Do we want to arrange a larger scale test on this?

One thing that did strike me last night is that it would likely make a great team event, basically so you always have a partner to bump draft with. 

On a side note I'm also curious to see how the detuned Nascars work on road courses too, I've tried the full power ones before and found them a bit unwieldy but if they're easier to control at around 500hp then it might open up the possibility of a race series too as well as a single endurance race.

For those that really like the side by side oval racing I think this definitely has a lot of potential!

I have wondered why the Nascars haven't been put on road tracks. I would think that would be fun, but everyone seems to think they can only run on ovals.

I've done this before and it did make for some good racing. Even backed down just a little bit the car really came in, I want to say it was about 75% made the car handle rather well at Indy road course. I can't remember exactly what the numbers were at the moment but I think it was 650 HP that I ran with some of the TPRA guys at Monza. Once for shits and giggles I took on Allstar at Autumn ring mini on one tuned down to 450 HP. So yeah, it is viable.

[TunahCroonah]

Last night, JayZ606 pondered about the real vs game Nascar Cars and came up with the Idea to de-tune them (restrictor Plates). Restrictor plates are used at the bigger, longer tracks in Nascar to keep the racing reasonably safe. So we picked out a HP/Wt and Tire mix and started to run them to get close to the specs that were run at the Daytona 500.

Getting into that action last night reminded me of just how much fun "pack" racing can be when done properly.  We all had a great time and at 503 HP and 1565kg (what we finally decided was working the best), the cars were really well behaved.  One could brush the wall and recover rather nicely.  The slight touch of one's front bumper on the rear quarter panel of another, however, can cause chaos, just like IRL, so care must be taken when bump drafting.  But carefully driven, it can be a lot of white knuckle fun.  There is a level of comfort in the stability of these cars at the above mentioned specs. And realistically, we were running 49.9 sec. laps and hitting about 185 mph on the straights - just like the real Daytona 500 TT's.   It's definitely worth a hard look at not only endurance (perhaps even a 200miler)racing but perhaps a series of races at different tracks.  

This afternoon, we tried running those same specs at Monza with mixed results as the cars were set up for oval racing.
Tracks that could be a lot of fun:
Daytona Superspeedway, DRC, IMS (Indy Speedway), Indy Road, Laguna Seca, Monza, Spa, HSR, Grand Valley, and perhaps even Le Mans.  

Whether it is endurance racing at these tracks or just a series, it's something to think about.

O.K., Ronin.... I did my schtick    Get moving,  

[Boston77Bruins]

SAAAAWEEEEEEEET!!!
Man, where have you guys been all this time.     Pack racing IS fun!!!  (with the right people)

I will need to work on a better road course tune than the one I currently use, but I am down for any thing at the speedways!!!

[ZeeTuna303]

 

What a lot of folks around here might not know is that I slipped back into the world of GT pretty much by accident.... I originally bought my G25 to race Nascar 08 on the PS3 and I was a member/co-founder of a VERY competitive race team in that venue. Once the GT HD demo came out and I spent some time with it, I realized that Nascar's days were numbered as GT was one of the first "true" racing games that I ever played. Nevertheless I've always had a love for oval racing and no matter what anyone says - There's a TON of skill involved in it....

Think it's all about just turning left? Try doing it PERFECTLY while in a crowd, over and over... This arena of racing isn't about racing the track itself, it's about racing the other competitors.... I remember hearing that they used to give out an award in F1 for most passes in a season, typically the winner would have made 7-8 passes ALL YEAR... Nascar is the direct opposite of that with it's constant passing and close pack action. It's truly a pile of fun when you get 10-12 cars out there battling for position, teaming up to draft to an advantageous position and setting up home straight runs on the final lap.

The problem that I've always had with Nascar's inclusion in the GT series has been PD's lack of understanding when it comes to the sport. Back in the 80's Nascar realized quick that speeds were getting out of control - In 1987 Bill Elliot took the pole at Daytona with a peak speed of 210 MPH in open air. As cool as that sounds there was just no realistic way to ever make the sport safe at those speeds and something had to be done... Eventually they implemented the restrictor plate (placed in between the carb and intake to limit airflow) for the long tracks such as Daytona & Talledega. This effectively cuts the power of the engine in half to about 430 HP IRL. PD never did this, instead they allowed us to run wide open at 845 HP which takes pretty much all of the challenge and competition out of it thus leading to my thoughts on limiting the cars down so they run real world numbers...

Seriously guys, give this a chance.... This could be a lot of fun....     

[Boston77Bruins]

Nevertheless I've always had a love for oval racing and no matter what anyone says - There's a TON of skill involved in it....

Think it's all about just turning left? Try doing it PERFECTLY while in a crowd, over and over... This arena of racing isn't about racing the track itself, it's about racing the other competitors.... I remember hearing that they used to give out an award in F1 for most passes in a season, typically the winner would have made 7-8 passes ALL YEAR... Nascar is the direct opposite of that with it's constant passing and close pack action. It's truly a pile of fun when you get 10-12 cars out there battling for position, teaming up to draft to an advantageous position and setting up home straight runs on the final lap.




Amen Brother JayZ

I had no idea that we think very similarly when it comes to this.  
The horse power is of no concern to me.  I'll race 200 hp cars to 1000hp cars here. Its about the race, and I have had great races at all HP levels.   You said it best.  Try doing it PERFECTLY.  The planning, the teaming up, staying out of trouble,  the last few lap decisions, make it harder than just going left if you are gonna win it.   

[ZeeTuna303]

Didn't PD give us a power limiter for just this sort of thing?  

How does allowing us to run at 845 HP take pretty much all the challenge and competition out of it?  Based on my own virtual experiences, I have a hell of a lot harder time (more of a challenge) driving some 845 HP monster as opposed to a 430 HP car.  




1st question - Yes they did but when was the last time you used it in this arena? I'd bet never and that's what I'm getting at....

2nd question - This question surprises me given that I've never seen a Tuna event that allows you to run wide open power.... Everything's ALWAYS limited, why's it a concern now? LOL

If you're out there running it cranked sure you can go faster BUT when you get a pack going the most likely end result is a big pileup in the top of turn 1. On top of that, I've found that with that much power it's easier to get away from the pack and it doesn't make gearing/aero/suspension setup as crucial as it does at lower HP. Strategy starts to come into play a lot quicker as well - When should I pass? Will the guy behind me go with me/bump draft us to the front or will I end up shut out of the draft train and go to the back? Is my car any good in open air? Do I have a leading car or a pusher?


For me that's always been the great part of the sport, for as rough and redneck as it looks, what it truly is is a chess match....

When I first started thinking about the idea my focus wasn't on how fast the car can possibly go around Daytona, it was on "How close to real can we get this if that's even possible in this game". I wanted real world lap times that result in real world style race issues. Given that I'm familiar with the sport and that the current 500 was running it made it easy to compare our cars to theirs. Ironically, if we set our cars anywhere near the stated 430 HP that the cars make running the plates, we can't duplicate their lap times and even at 503 I think we're still a tad slow. Carl Edwards ran something like 46.6 as a qualifying lap in open air, with 503 HP we're setting open air times in the low 49s - Over 2 seconds slower.... I still don't think that I'm happy with the power setting and it needs more testing because how the draft affects the car is crucial to this being workable too.

Finally, I can tell you with some certainty that running around Daytona with lower power is more fun (in Stock cars anyways) because I've spent a TON of hours doing it, just on a different game. In the EA game you're not even given the option to run the cars set on what would be considered a "short track spec" on the big tracks. You're automatically limited with no option to change it if even just for fun. Despite that, Daytona was by far one of the most popular tracks out there because the conditions made for close/intense racing. In all honesty I was better at short track racing but anytime that we went to Daytona with our league I knew that it was gonna be a fun ride.

[RoninTuna]

When I first started thinking about the idea my focus wasn't on how fast the car can possibly go around Daytona, it was on "How close to real can we get this if that's even possible in this game". I wanted real world lap times that result in real world style race issues. Given that I'm familiar with the sport and that the current 500 was running it made it easy to compare our cars to theirs. Ironically, if we set our cars anywhere near the stated 430 HP that the cars make running the plates, we can't duplicate their lap times and even at 503 I think we're still a tad slow. Carl Edwards ran something like 46.6 as a qualifying lap in open air, with 503 HP we're setting open air times in the low 49s - Over 2 seconds slower.... I still don't think that I'm happy with the power setting and it needs more testing because how the draft affects the car is crucial to this being workable too.

Ok, So if we are going to arrange a larger scale test do we try to get ten or more of us running at the 503 that you left off at or do we puch up the power a little bit more first?

[ZeeTuna303]

Ronin,

I might take some time and look into it a bit further yet tonight.... At this point it's still a guessing game...

[ZeeTuna303]

Nevertheless I've always had a love for oval racing and no matter what anyone says - There's a TON of skill involved in it....

Think it's all about just turning left? Try doing it PERFECTLY while in a crowd, over and over... This arena of racing isn't about racing the track itself, it's about racing the other competitors.... I remember hearing that they used to give out an award in F1 for most passes in a season, typically the winner would have made 7-8 passes ALL YEAR... Nascar is the direct opposite of that with it's constant passing and close pack action. It's truly a pile of fun when you get 10-12 cars out there battling for position, teaming up to draft to an advantageous position and setting up home straight runs on the final lap.




Amen Brother JayZ

I had no idea that we think very similarly when it comes to this.  
The horse power is of no concern to me.  I'll race 200 hp cars to 1000hp cars here. Its about the race, and I have had great races at all HP levels.   You said it best.  Try doing it PERFECTLY.  The planning, the teaming up, staying out of trouble,  the last few lap decisions, make it harder than just going left if you are gonna win it.  

 

Boston, I've been a big fan for many years now  and although I don't watch as religiously as I used to, I still follow it quite closely...

Here's a couple videos just for laugh, sorry for the poor quality on the second one (you'll have to crank the sound) but it's the only one I could find with that segment in it's entirety... Listen to what he says in the press conference, I thought I was gonna die laughing the first time that I saw it...

South Park Season 14 Episode 8 Poor and Stupid Clips

Cartman NASCAR interview

"I'm gonna drive fast, go straight and the turn to the left sometimes......."   

[RoninTuna]

Didn't PD give us a power limiter for just this sort of thing?  

How does allowing us to run at 845 HP take pretty much all the challenge and competition out of it?  Based on my own virtual experiences, I have a hell of a lot harder time (more of a challenge) driving some 845 HP monster as opposed to a 430 HP car.  




1st question - Yes they did but when was the last time you used it in this arena? I'd bet never and that's what I'm getting at....

2nd question - This question surprises me given that I've never seen a Tuna event that allows you to run wide open power.... Everything's ALWAYS limited, why's it a concern now? LOL

If you're out there running it cranked sure you can go faster BUT when you get a pack going the most likely end result is a big pileup in the top of turn 1. On top of that, I've found that with that much power it's easier to get away from the pack and it doesn't make gearing/aero/suspension setup as crucial as it does at lower HP. Strategy starts to come into play a lot quicker as well - When should I pass? Will the guy behind me go with me/bump draft us to the front or will I end up shut out of the draft train and go to the back? Is my car any good in open air? Do I have a leading car or a pusher?


For me that's always been the great part of the sport, for as rough and redneck as it looks, what it truly is is a chess match....

When I first started thinking about the idea my focus wasn't on how fast the car can possibly go around Daytona, it was on "How close to real can we get this if that's even possible in this game". I wanted real world lap times that result in real world style race issues. Given that I'm familiar with the sport and that the current 500 was running it made it easy to compare our cars to theirs. Ironically, if we set our cars anywhere near the stated 430 HP that the cars make running the plates, we can't duplicate their lap times and even at 503 I think we're still a tad slow. Carl Edwards ran something like 46.6 as a qualifying lap in open air, with 503 HP we're setting open air times in the low 49s - Over 2 seconds slower.... I still don't think that I'm happy with the power setting and it needs more testing because how the draft affects the car is crucial to this being workable too.

Finally, I can tell you with some certainty that running around Daytona with lower power is more fun (in Stock cars anyways) because I've spent a TON of hours doing it, just on a different game. In the EA game you're not even given the option to run the cars set on what would be considered a "short track spec" on the big tracks. You're automatically limited with no option to change it if even just for fun. Despite that, Daytona was by far one of the most popular tracks out there because the conditions made for close/intense racing. In all honesty I was better at short track racing but anytime that we went to Daytona with our league I knew that it was gonna be a fun ride.

Good reply.  I'll buy that.  Couple of counterpoints, however. 

My first question...just because we don't use the power limiter in the way you suggest doesn't mean PD didn't give it to us that way.

Second question...I've seen just as many pileups at slow speeds as I have at high speeds (though the pileups at high speeds are far more epic and entertaining).  Part of the reason you see guys get away at higher HP is because of what you suggest at lower HP...skill.  The fast guys can get away because they can handle cars at all levels while us slow guys can't. 

Also, also...this is one of the few places I've seen where guys of all skill levels race together.  Most other places have some sort of tiered racing so shitty guys like me don't end up racing with fast guys like Hey.  Here, shitty guys are thrown into the deep end and told to swim with sharks like Hey.  Naturally, the fast guys are going to get away. 

Having said that, your cutting back on power idea is going to eliminate that, at least on the ovals.  Still, once you throw some 90 degree turns at guys, the fast guys are always going to run away and hide. 

     In some sense you are right but overall you are incorrect. Yes, just because we don't use it that way does not mean it is not capable of it but, the truth is the power regulator that PD gave us was an afterthought installation. It's original intention for use was for minor fine tuning to meet PP's when running PP racing. PD never meant to have us restricting cars like this, that is why it was so bugged until recently. I am not sure if you remember this but when they first gave it to us you could put all the parts and pieces into a car and pull the power slider back and retain all of your torque giving you a decided advantage. This also had the side effect doing negligible difference in overall top speed of the Nascars on the oval tracks, because despite only having half the HP it still had all the torque it needed to accelerate through the gears. This is no longer the case. Now that PD has fixed it, We can use it for for this application.
     Had PD implemented this solely for this purpose it would not be available on all cars and more importantly all tracks. It would not only be useable at the ovals only but also a Nascar exclusive. They would have also had done this from the get go and not installed it later on in the games life. In addition to that there are more efficient ways that PD could have employed restrictor plates, PD has been using different restriction types for as long as I can remember. Wile I have not played Nascar 08 I have played some of the older ones, in fact I think the last one I played was 98 and in them Daytona and Talledega had been exactly as Jayz described them to be in 08. EA's been doing it for over ten years, It would not have been too hard for PD to take that page out of EA's book and make it so the nascars are automatically limited with no option to change it at Daytona, but that is not what they did.
     This I beg to differ. Yes pile ups happen at slow speeds but to fully grasp the difference here you would have had to experience the testing we did the other night. Your experience thus far I am assuming is all cars at full strength or some semblance therein. You will find the cars behavior is significantly changed with the restrictor plating. At full power regardless of what you are driving be it a DLMP to a Suzuki Cappuccino you have no doubt experienced the "Magnetic wall" we all have. You get stuck on that fucker and you are done, off the draft face down, ass up, fucked. With the restrictor plates, you can actually get off that wall, not only that but you can stay in the draft. This is one element that makes it a little easier to stay in to a draft pack. Conversely you also have the element now that the cars are not running under their own power (For lack of a better phrase) they are running under the power of the cars around them. If you have ever driven a car out side of it's power band, you know just how susceptible it is to anomaly. A slight rub, an over correction, sudden brake check any one of them can send the car into a violent spin. You take both of those elements easier to stay in the draft and easier to wreck, you will find all of a sudden the aliens and the doughnut packin joe gamers are equals. I think you will find a 16 car pile up far more epic than anything you you will ever see running at full power.
     Well....this was originally just about Daytona in particular, the road coursed was a side venture that came up later. You are absolutely right as far as road racing goes, the fast guys are going to be fast, we're not denying this.

I tried to get a hold of Wizard last night and failed but I am going to try again to see if we can't arrange for some fuller testing of this through the ToC races.

[SlyTuna]

Didn't PD give us a power limiter for just this sort of thing?  

How does allowing us to run at 845 HP take pretty much all the challenge and competition out of it?  Based on my own virtual experiences, I have a hell of a lot harder time (more of a challenge) driving some 845 HP monster as opposed to a 430 HP car.  




1st question - Yes they did but when was the last time you used it in this arena? I'd bet never and that's what I'm getting at....

2nd question - This question surprises me given that I've never seen a Tuna event that allows you to run wide open power.... Everything's ALWAYS limited, why's it a concern now? LOL

If you're out there running it cranked sure you can go faster BUT when you get a pack going the most likely end result is a big pileup in the top of turn 1. On top of that, I've found that with that much power it's easier to get away from the pack and it doesn't make gearing/aero/suspension setup as crucial as it does at lower HP. Strategy starts to come into play a lot quicker as well - When should I pass? Will the guy behind me go with me/bump draft us to the front or will I end up shut out of the draft train and go to the back? Is my car any good in open air? Do I have a leading car or a pusher?


For me that's always been the great part of the sport, for as rough and redneck as it looks, what it truly is is a chess match....

When I first started thinking about the idea my focus wasn't on how fast the car can possibly go around Daytona, it was on "How close to real can we get this if that's even possible in this game". I wanted real world lap times that result in real world style race issues. Given that I'm familiar with the sport and that the current 500 was running it made it easy to compare our cars to theirs. Ironically, if we set our cars anywhere near the stated 430 HP that the cars make running the plates, we can't duplicate their lap times and even at 503 I think we're still a tad slow. Carl Edwards ran something like 46.6 as a qualifying lap in open air, with 503 HP we're setting open air times in the low 49s - Over 2 seconds slower.... I still don't think that I'm happy with the power setting and it needs more testing because how the draft affects the car is crucial to this being workable too.

Finally, I can tell you with some certainty that running around Daytona with lower power is more fun (in Stock cars anyways) because I've spent a TON of hours doing it, just on a different game. In the EA game you're not even given the option to run the cars set on what would be considered a "short track spec" on the big tracks. You're automatically limited with no option to change it if even just for fun. Despite that, Daytona was by far one of the most popular tracks out there because the conditions made for close/intense racing. In all honesty I was better at short track racing but anytime that we went to Daytona with our league I knew that it was gonna be a fun ride.

Good reply.  I'll buy that.  Couple of counterpoints, however. 

My first question...just because we don't use the power limiter in the way you suggest doesn't mean PD didn't give it to us that way.

Second question...I've seen just as many pileups at slow speeds as I have at high speeds (though the pileups at high speeds are far more epic and entertaining).  Part of the reason you see guys get away at higher HP is because of what you suggest at lower HP...skill.  The fast guys can get away because they can handle cars at all levels while us slow guys can't. 

Also, also...this is one of the few places I've seen where guys of all skill levels race together.  Most other places have some sort of tiered racing so shitty guys like me don't end up racing with fast guys like Hey.  Here, shitty guys are thrown into the deep end and told to swim with sharks like Hey.  Naturally, the fast guys are going to get away. 

Having said that, your cutting back on power idea is going to eliminate that, at least on the ovals.  Still, once you throw some 90 degree turns at guys, the fast guys are always going to run away and hide. 

     In some sense you are right but overall you are incorrect. Yes, just because we don't use it that way does not mean it is not capable of it but, the truth is the power regulator that PD gave us was an afterthought installation. It's original intention for use was for minor fine tuning to meet PP's when running PP racing. PD never meant to have us restricting cars like this, that is why it was so bugged until recently. I am not sure if you remember this but when they first gave it to us you could put all the parts and pieces into a car and pull the power slider back and retain all of your torque giving you a decided advantage. This also had the side effect doing negligible difference in overall top speed of the Nascars on the oval tracks, because despite only having half the HP it still had all the torque it needed to accelerate through the gears. This is no longer the case. Now that PD has fixed it, We can use it for for this application.
     Had PD implemented this solely for this purpose it would not be available on all cars and more importantly all tracks. It would not only be useable at the ovals only but also a Nascar exclusive. They would have also had done this from the get go and not installed it later on in the games life. In addition to that there are more efficient ways that PD could have employed restrictor plates, PD has been using different restriction types for as long as I can remember. Wile I have not played Nascar 08 I have played some of the older ones, in fact I think the last one I played was 98 and in them Daytona and Talledega had been exactly as Jayz described them to be in 08. EA's been doing it for over ten years, It would not have been too hard for PD to take that page out of EA's book and make it so the nascars are automatically limited with no option to change it at Daytona, but that is not what they did.
     This I beg to differ. Yes pile ups happen at slow speeds but to fully grasp the difference here you would have had to experience the testing we did the other night. Your experience thus far I am assuming is all cars at full strength or some semblance therein. You will find the cars behavior is significantly changed with the restrictor plating. At full power regardless of what you are driving be it a DLMP to a Suzuki Cappuccino you have no doubt experienced the "Magnetic wall" we all have. You get stuck on that fucker and you are done, off the draft face down, ass up, fucked. With the restrictor plates, you can actually get off that wall, not only that but you can stay in the draft. This is one element that makes it a little easier to stay in to a draft pack. Conversely you also have the element now that the cars are not running under their own power (For lack of a better phrase) they are running under the power of the cars around them. If you have ever driven a car out side of it's power band, you know just how susceptible it is to anomaly. A slight rub, an over correction, sudden brake check any one of them can send the car into a violent spin. You take both of those elements easier to stay in the draft and easier to wreck, you will find all of a sudden the aliens and the doughnut packin joe gamers are equals. I think you will find a 16 car pile up far more epic than anything you you will ever see running at full power.
   

This is most of the problem I have with a lot of the series we run around here.  The aliens and the Joe Gamers aren't equals.  Most of the aliens don't want to be equals.  They've got an ability the rest of us don't and/or they've worked harder than the rest of us have and they shouldn't be equals. 

If you want pack racing, institute the strong draft and turn on the boost. 

This is what i'm doing for my drive in. I'm leaving boost on strong and strong draft. Extra punishment for people like hey... maybe, but hey.. i'd like to see people like Charlie and myself keep up with the pack so definitely expect that on the 24th!

[CharlieTuna]

Charlie don't needz no stinkin' boost on DayTUNA to keep up...  Charlie just needs to not lift on corner exit; but often that is not an option...


I do like strong slipstream out on the oval but it's not that crucial either.  Key is to not lose the draft...


Oh, and besides, if I minded being in the back I would've given this up long, long ago.  (I actually truly :fucking hate being up front at the start - or in the middle for that matter - I'd rather be in the back so I don't screw up others' Turn 1s)