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Author Topic: Ronins Classes  (Read 9505 times)

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RoninTuna

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Ronins Classes
« on: March 01, 2012, 11:23:45 AM »

As we get closer to the date we test the multiclass racing I am getting a little excited. I've known for a wile I would need to expand a couple of the classes and do a little bit of adjusting the classes before employing the format into endurance racing. I have these set up as I would use them under the format I have been using for the test races. This list is not yet complete so some cars may get moved around a little and PP values for individual classes may change.

    --Group-C (725pp)--
       - R92CP Race Car '92 #1
       - XJR-9 LM Race Car '88 Standard or Premium #2
       - R89C Race Car '89 #23
       - MINOLTA Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89 #36
       - 787B Race car '91 #55
       - Sauber Mercedes C9 Race Car '89 #63
       - 787B Stealth Model



    --LM-P (700pp)--
       - 908 HDi FAP - Team Peugeot Total '10 or R8 Race Car '01 (Yellow) #1
       - R8 Race Car '01 (Red) #2
       - GT-ONE Race Car (TS020) '99 3
       - 908 HDi FAP - Team Oreca Matmut '10 or R8 Race Car (Audi PlayStation Team ORECA) '05 #4
       - Speed 8 Race Car '03 #7
       - R10 TDI Race Car '06 #8
       - V12 LMR Race Car '99 #15
       - Pescarolo-Courage - Judd GV5 Race Car '04 (Green) or Courage C60 - Peugeot Race Car '03 (Green) #17
       - Pescarolo-Courage - Judd GV5 Race Car '04 (Red) or Courage C60 - Peugeot Race Car '03 (Red) #18
       - R10 TDI Stealth Model

    --GT-1 (625pp)--
       - CLK-LM Race Car '98 #2
       - Ford GT LM Race Car 2004, 2004 Alternate or 2007 or Esperante GTR-1 Race Car '98 #4
       - R8 LMS Race Car (Team PlayStation) '09 or 2000 Ford Falcon XR8 #5
       - GT-R Concept LM Race Car #23
       - Zonda LM Race Car #24
       - R390 GT1 Race Car '98 #32
       - XJ220 LM Race Car #41
       - McLaren F1 GTR Race Car '97 #42
       - Corvette C5-R (C5) '00 #64
       - Camaro LM Race Car #65
       - GT-R N24 Schulze Motor Sports '11 #71
       - Fairlady Z Concept LM Race Car #75
       - NOMAD Diablo GT-1 '00 #88
       - Viper GTS-R Team Oreca Race Car #51, #91
       - RX-7 LM Race Car #00, #7, #18, #26, #30, #37, #93
       - Corvette Z06 (C6) RM '06
       - Corvette ZR1 (C6) RM '09
       - GT-R R35 Touring Car
       - McLaren F1 Stealth Model


    --GT-2 (550pp)--
       - AEM S2000 #4
       - NSX-R Prototype LM Race Car #11
       - M3 GTR Race Car '01 #42
       - FALKENā˜†GT-R Race Car '04 #44
       - RX-8 Concept LM Race Car #55
       - ALTEZZA Touring Car #10 #24 #35 #40
       - IMPREZA Super Touring Car #57 #77 #87 #97
       - Tuscan Speed 6 RM '00
       - Lancer Evolution IX GSR RM '05
       - INTEGRA TYPE R (DC5) RM '04
       - IS F RM '07
       - NSX RM '91
       - Camaro SS RM '10
       - Challenger SRT8 Touring Car
       - SKYLINE GT-R R34 Touring Car
       - IMPREZA Touring Car
       - RX-7 Touring Car
       - SILVIA spec-R AERO (S15) RM '02


    --GT-3R (475pp)--
       - Opera S2000 '04 #8
       - IS 200 GT-1 Race Car '04 #10
       - S2000 LM Race Car #30
       - BMW 320i Touring Car '03 #42
       - Spoon S2000 Race Car '00 #95
       - Elise RM '96
       - Elise 111R RM '04
       - Lutecia Renault Sport Trophy Race Car '00 or  Clio Renault Sport Trophy Race Car '00 # researching

    --GT-3F (475pp)--
       - INTEGRA TYPE R Touring Car #31
       - Gathers Drider CIVIC Race Car '98 #77
       - Atenza Touring Car or Mazda6 Touring Car #82
       - New Beetle Cup Car '00 #2 #11 #15 #17 #18 #20 #21 #23
       - CR-Z Touring Car
       - PRIUS Touring Car
       - CIVIC TYPE R (EK) RM '97
       - Golf IV GTI RM '01
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 09:09:20 PM by RoninTuna »
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Wolfpack987

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 03:27:25 PM »

Ronin, weren't all those 725PP race cars known as IMSA Group C race cars?  Not Type C?  

And I feel like that CLK-LM Race Car '98 doesn't belong in the 625PP class.  I think 700PP would be more appropriate for it.  (I believe it has over 800hp stock)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:43:13 PM by WolfpackS2k »
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Turbo-Tuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 05:50:05 PM »

My thoughts...I think a problem we have is that classes and regs changed over the years. The CLK-LM, Panoz, Vertigo, and R390 I think all have high power and PP when stock for the 625 class, but either because of weight and/or lack of downforce, can't compete with the LMP cars. I don't think they should be run at 625PP, and would chose a Z06 RM or Oreca Viper at 625 before those cars, but running them against a R8 '01 or BMW V12 seems pointless to me.

Where's the Toyota GT-One? (it raced against the BMW V12 in 1999) Accourding to 'sources', the bold cars above competed against each other in 1998, against the GT-One, but the Toyota was upgraded for 1999.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:01:56 PM by Turbo-Tuna »
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RoninTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 10:22:32 PM »

Ronin, weren't all those 725PP race cars known as IMSA Group C race cars?  Not Type C?

You are right and I friggen knew that, corrected.  

And I feel like that CLK-LM Race Car '98 doesn't belong in the 625PP class.  I think 700PP would be more appropriate for it.  (I believe it has over 800hp stock)
My thoughts...I think a problem we have is that classes and regs changed over the years. The CLK-LM, Panoz, Vertigo, and R390 I think all have high power and PP when stock for the 625 class, but either because of weight and/or lack of downforce, can't compete with the LMP cars. I don't think they should be run at 625PP, and would chose a Z06 RM or Oreca Viper at 625 before those cars, but running them against a R8 '01 or BMW V12 seems pointless to me.


Those cars are what are referred to as homologation specials, or cars that the manufacturer built for racing first then threw together a road going version to bump it down into GT class with the intention of domination. Wile yes stock they are in a league of their own but their own manufacturers manipulated them into GT class. Back then the manufacturers where not playing nice with the competitors cars and deliberately created monsters with the intent to decimate the class. I however am looking to make them play nice with their classmates. They are not LM-P's and simply do not cut the mustard and as GT cars they are a little too much if left alone. There are simply not enough cars of that kind to build a class for them specifically so dialing them down to play nice is the appropriate thing to do from where I am sitting.


Oh, and additionally, the CLK GTR, it will only hit 700 when tuned to the hilt and only on it's best day meaning you have to have one with under 300 miles on it in order to get close to 700 PP. With the exception of the R-390, all the cars mentioned in those two posts will not reach 700PP, Including the CLK GTR if bought used and/or unbroken in. Even it at optimal condition, I can not guarantee that it will.

Where's the Toyota GT-One? (it raced against the BMW V12 in 1999) Accourding to 'sources', the bold cars above competed against each other in 1998, against the GT-One, but the Toyota was upgraded for 1999.
...Over looked....Added
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 02:01:15 PM by RoninTuna »
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Feldynn

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 07:20:47 AM »

Not that I'm especially likely to drive an LMP type car (at least not competitively  :laugh) I was wondering about the Peugeot 905 Race Car '92, don't think I saw it on the list but there may be a reason for that.

Also regarding the Gillet Vertigo, I mentioned this to Ronin already I think, currently there is (or at least was last time I checked) a bug with the way the Vertigo calculates PP similar to the Toyota 7.  Something gets a little screwy when you're adding / removing power and downforce that causes the PP to act unexpectedly (increasing when you'd expect a decrease and vice versa).

Best example I have is that I'd tuned mine to run at 650PP and the last time I finished driving I noticed it losing power on the tune sheet.  Normally losing power / needing an oil change results in less PP right, well mine went from 650PP UP to 661PP but lost horsepower and that doesn't sound right to me.  I'll try and check that next time I'm in game though, assuming I can remember!  (I'd write myself a reminder note but I'd only forget where I put it  :lolz)
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Feldynn

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2012, 12:51:54 AM »

I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the way PP is calculated for the Gillet Vertigo, it'll effectively as fast as a 700PP+ car in terms of top speed and acceleration but at 650PP with the right combination of aero / horsepower.  Lower the downforce or power and the PP will increase up to a point before it starts decreasing again, like it's reading a false 650PP then trying to self correct by increasing PP to about 675 before it starts to drop "correctly" again.  Kind of hard to explain but it makes sense if you play with the car's settings :).

Also Ronin, I think we talked before about the Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring car not having a number so it wasn't going to be included.  I found a new (to me) colour in the UCD tonight that does display a number so I went back to check the others I had, turns out they all DO have numbers but they are almost impossible to see depending on the colour of the car (darker the colour, harder to read).  For the darker colours you can just catch a glimpse of the number as it rotates in the garage view when the light source slides across the number panel, cars I have so far..

Black #2
White #3 (maybe light cyan)
Yellow #7
Dark Blue #8 (I think )

.. the number shows up most visibly on the yellow and fairly well on the white ones so it might be possible to include those two at least, possibly others if there are other colours.
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RoninTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2012, 10:52:43 AM »

I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the way PP is calculated for the Gillet Vertigo, it'll effectively as fast as a 700PP+ car in terms of top speed and acceleration but at 650PP with the right combination of aero / horsepower.  Lower the downforce or power and the PP will increase up to a point before it starts decreasing again, like it's reading a false 650PP then trying to self correct by increasing PP to about 675 before it starts to drop "correctly" again.  Kind of hard to explain but it makes sense if you play with the car's settings :).

Also Ronin, I think we talked before about the Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring car not having a number so it wasn't going to be included.  I found a new (to me) colour in the UCD tonight that does display a number so I went back to check the others I had, turns out they all DO have numbers but they are almost impossible to see depending on the colour of the car (darker the colour, harder to read).  For the darker colours you can just catch a glimpse of the number as it rotates in the garage view when the light source slides across the number panel, cars I have so far..

Black #2
White #3 (maybe light cyan)
Yellow #7
Dark Blue #8 (I think )

.. the number shows up most visibly on the yellow and fairly well on the white ones so it might be possible to include those two at least, possibly others if there are other colours.

With the Vertigo, I'll have to play with it and see this. For the FTO, I have the white one, I know full well what you are trying to get at. I still do not believe they are visible on track, never the less this is one of those things I would much rather exclude the whole set. There are fewer cars with vaguely visible numbers than there are with blank boxes. It's easier to disqualify one or two of ten or more in the instance of the RX-7 than have one or two of six or seven eligible. Don't get me wrong, I love the FTO super touring car and would have loved to have this in my group but it's flawed on GT5. if we can convince PD to put the numbers back on to them they will definitely have a place but as they are now I have to exclude them because they don't fit what I am trying to create.
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BakedTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 02:32:59 PM »

As always I am curious whats with the hang up on the numbers thing?
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RoninTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 04:13:21 PM »

As always I am curious whats with the hang up on the numbers thing?

Same thing as it was last time. It's one of my biggest pet peeves with this game, When I set up races with these classes I fully intend to eliminate that flaw. That said, Race cars have numbers and sponsor decals with few exceptions for sponsor decals.
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BakedTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 05:00:05 PM »

My bad i forgot we had been through some of this. And i do understand that numbers serve a purpose. But that purpose was for scoring which is handled electronically not just in our game but at local go kart tracks all across our country. But anyhow my bad for being repetitive.
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RoninTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 11:47:51 AM »

My bad i forgot we had been through some of this. And i do understand that numbers serve a purpose. But that purpose was for scoring which is handled electronically not just in our game but at local go kart tracks all across our country. But anyhow my bad for being repetitive.

Never the less, In the real world not including the karts and drag racing all top end series I am aware of there are no instances where it is permissible to run unnumbered cars or multiple cars of the same number simultaneously. This is for scoring and identification purposes even in instances where electronic scoring is used. Most sanctioning bodies still have manual scoring staff even they are merely a secondary means of verification at the end of the day, they still are there and working.

Having said all of that, considering I can not assemble these classes as they are IRL because PD has only given us a mere handful of cars from over a dozen different real world sanctioning bodies and some from fictitious organizations I need to have some method to my madness. That method can be found in aesthetics. I want these cars not only to look like they could be found running together on track but also look like they belong to a top notch sanctioning body and running at their highest levels. This is accomplished through restrictions.

I know people don't like restrictions but when you sit down and think about it, the restrictions I use, though a little off the wall and abnormal are not asinine. Yes, I use numbers as a restriction, that is why the classes I have assembled here are required to have them. Once you get past that number restriction, all you have as far as restriction is a pp number. I could not care less how one gets to that pp level, what parts and pieces they cram into the car, how much and/or where they put ballast and all that other happy horse shit. I don't do all that six months of testing to make sure each car is perfectly balanced to the next that the TPRA does. It's bullshit, I don't have the time for it and I know full well no one here wants to pussyfoot around with exacting specs, tuning restrictions, parts restrictions and whatnot. So getting the car you want is a part of the competition, grab up your particular ringer before some one else does.

In my efforts to make it so I can have an acceptable number of cars for people to choose from I have found a number of forgotten race cars. One very notable one is a little one off Korean race car. Feldynn jumped into it the other night during testing and found it handled well, had astonishing tireware and has the potential to be a ringer in long haul races. Despite that, I never see it on the track because it looks like a turd and no one gives it a second thought much less drive it.

There has been some talk by others pertaining to manually assembling car classes, What people did not realize is I have been thinking about and halfheartedly been working on that very thing since Gran Turismo 3. This thread is a discussion of the embodiment of my idea of classes and so far seems to be a fairly solid framework for manual classification of the cars we have. Where people go with it may differ and that is fine that is why I made a point of saying that "I have these set up as I would use them under the format I have been using". I'm not saying it's perfect, just this is how I am going to use them.


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BakedTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2012, 03:16:08 PM »

OK
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CharlieTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 11:14:27 AM »

I haz an evnet that I am planning for the end of May's Drive-In...  The info here has been very helpful in letting me decide on cars.



But in looking at your breakdown, I have some questions...

Are these listings "complete" or are they a work in progress?  I.e. are any missing?  For example, I don't see the FTO Super Touring in the mix?   Wouldn't it fit in GT-3?  (I notice other touring class cars)

I also have some questions about the ones where you list one car or another...   Is this either/or but not both?  I didn't quite understand...
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DesertSniper72

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 01:13:41 PM »

I haz an evnet that I am planning for the end of May's Drive-In...  The info here has been very helpful in letting me decide on cars.



But in looking at your breakdown, I have some questions...

Are these listings "complete" or are they a work in progress?  I.e. are any missing?  For example, I don't see the FTO Super Touring in the mix?   Wouldn't it fit in GT-3? (I notice other touring class cars)

I also have some questions about the ones where you list one car or another...   Is this either/or but not both?  I didn't quite understand...



Post #6
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CharlieTuna

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Re: Ronins Classes
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 01:24:58 PM »


Post #6

Thanks Sniper!   (nevermind Ronin...)





Also Ronin, I think we talked before about the Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring car not having a number so it wasn't going to be included.  

Black #2
White #3 (maybe light cyan)
Yellow #7
Dark Blue #8 (I think )

Red #6    ;)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:26:35 PM by CharlieTuna »
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