Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GoesTuna11]

In a high speed corner, what you are trying to do is convert your momentum from going one direction, to another.  To do that you need a force which is provided by the tires.  The tires produce the most force when they are at the optimal temperature and the optimal slip angle.  When you light them up in a slide, they are neither at the optimal slip angle nor the optimal temperature so they should not be as effective.

[Brindle]

In a high speed corner, what you are trying to do is convert your momentum from going one direction, to another.  To do that you need a force which is provided by the tires.  The tires produce the most force when they are at the optimal temperature and the optimal slip angle.  When you light them up in a slide, they are neither at the optimal slip angle nor the optimal temperature so they should not be as effective.

My point exactly.

[Wiz]

Red was all I saw.

Word.  That's pretty much what I was trying to get at but probably didn't get my point across.

I could get on board with a little slip/slide being an effective way to get around a track as quickly as possible.  But it's the amount of slip/slide/red tire that seemed to work well in the TT that is concerning.

[EX_stream_tuna]

that is correct, but what is missing is the occasional need to rotate a car beyond its turning radius.  it seems like there might be a time when a very brief loss of traction, which is usually undesirable for fast times, might be outweighed by a car's ability to then get around the corner only a little bit faster (by effectively making the corner smaller) and  then begin moving straight again, sooner.

perhaps what they don't have modeled correctly in GT is the tire's loss of performance when heated too much?  Maybe if they did model it correclty this "outweighing effect" wouldn't be beneficial to use?

and... maybe Yokohama gave them bad data to make their tires seem more badass?  LOL maybe.

I guess maybe wht I'm really getting at here is that in game time trials, people are trying their darndest to find little physics tricks to use, some considered "legal" and some not.  Even the legal ones may or may not be realistic, but that still isn't the point -- which is that in real life we simply don't have the time, money or any other variable at our disposal in order to find those physics tricks.  And if we did, they'd be extremely difficult to execute, so we wouldn't count on it working for us.  If we gained a 10th coming out of a corner by using a small slide like this, our team manager might instruct us not to use it because it was detrimental as an overall strategy, and we'd avoid it.

Even a racing team with a very high budget couldn't do hundreds of runs with the same driver on a track for weeks on end to find all of the tricks.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that said trick wouldn't work in a limited fashion.

I say there might be a middle ground where the loss of traction is outweighed by one's ability to get around and going quicker, because even though I tried my best to mimick what those top drivers were doing, I found that the loss of traction usually worked against me.  The ability to nail that perfect balancing act is what I really respect about what they were able to do.

Either way, I'm not really trying to say I'm right and you guys are wrong.  I'm just arguing that we perhaps shouldn't insist that a momentary loss of traction will ALWAYS be detrimental, but rather almost always impractical and not worth the risk.

Perhaps the tire model, if it actually is realistic, should be made less-so, in order to make this impracticality something sim-racers intentionally avoid?

[EX_stream_tuna]

Red was all I saw.

Word.  That's pretty much what I was trying to get at but probably didn't get my point across.

I could get on board with a little slip/slide being an effective way to get around a track as quickly as possible.  But it's the amount of slip/slide/red tire that seemed to work well in the TT that is concerning.

Okay that sounds more like what I'd feel is reasonable.  Perhaps the heat factor really does need to be modeled better, in terms of performance loss.

also, we have no idea yet if GT6 will have the two grip levels for offroad, which we all know has some effect on the pavement at these grip threashold scenarios.  If we get GT6 and there is an Real setting, we should see how this debate ensues after that.  Though, if there is a "non-real" setting I'm sure it will be that way for all of the TT's, because that appeears to be how PD wants it, much to our shagrin.

[GoesTuna11]

Even if you don't consider tire heat, I don't think that it is possible that the sliding that you see in Copse, Maggott's and Beckett's can be faster than taking the corners at the optimal slip angle (which will look like a little bit of sliding.)  In slow speed corners there might be some advantage to sliding the car a little to get the car pointed in the right direction but high speed corners are different.  You are just going to scrub off speed doing this.  I could be missing something.  Tire physics are crazy complicated.  But I'm pretty good with physics and I can't see where I would be wrong.

[TheHotstepper]

Even if you don't consider tire heat, I don't think that it is possible that the sliding that you see in Copse, Maggott's and Beckett's can be faster than taking the corners at the optimal slip angle (which will look like a little bit of sliding.)  In slow speed corners there might be some advantage to sliding the car a little to get the car pointed in the right direction but high speed corners are different.  You are just going to scrub off speed doing this.  I could be missing something.  Tire physics are crazy complicated.  But I'm pretty good with physics and I can't see where I would be wrong.

I'm pretty good with physics too

[GoesTuna11]

Even if you don't consider tire heat, I don't think that it is possible that the sliding that you see in Copse, Maggott's and Beckett's can be faster than taking the corners at the optimal slip angle (which will look like a little bit of sliding.)  In slow speed corners there might be some advantage to sliding the car a little to get the car pointed in the right direction but high speed corners are different.  You are just going to scrub off speed doing this.  I could be missing something.  Tire physics are crazy complicated.  But I'm pretty good with physics and I can't see where I would be wrong.

I'm pretty good with physics too

Ouch.  I know my post sounded stupid but I didn't want to pull the PhD in biomechanics card.

[no_affiliations]

I could easily be wrong, and I'm decidedly undereducated for the argument, but I think the answer lies somewhere in between 'scrubbing off speed' and 'tire degradation' -- specifically, I think the lack of penalty for tire abuse allows someone with a precise enough style to use the slide to scrub off a little bit of speed, instead of scrubbing  it off by braking.  this slight abuse could provide some advantage in the usual less braking, more accelerating way - with the lack of wear/grip loss making it work where it maybe shouldn't.  Just my $0.02.

[GoesTuna11]

I could easily be wrong, and I'm decidedly undereducated for the argument, but I think the answer lies somewhere in between 'scrubbing off speed' and 'tire degradation' -- specifically, I think the lack of penalty for tire abuse allows someone with a precise enough style to use the slide to scrub off a little bit of speed, instead of scrubbing  it off by braking.  this slight abuse could provide some advantage in the usual less braking, more accelerating way - with the lack of wear/grip loss making it work where it maybe shouldn't.  Just my $0.02.

A perfectly logical argument and if we were talking about slow speed corners I'd agree with you but fast corners shouldn't work that way because the acceleration component isn't as important.

Think of it this way.  Say we have a car going due north at 100mph and wants to turn due east.  Now we are going to turn the car two different ways.  First we magically, instantaneously pick the car up, turn it 90 degrees and put it down.  Sounds awesome, we turned 90 degrees instantaneously but lets take a closer look.  The instant you turn the car 90 degrees the car is still going 100mph north and 0mph east.  That sucks.  Worse that 100mph N is going to rapidly decrease as the tires scrub off the speed (we'll assume the car won't flip).  The only way you will pick up east speed is by accelerating with your engine but since your tires are skidding, you have very little grip and little acceleration.

For the second turn, the car will use a magical grappling hook to hook on a magical pole at the side of the road and spin the car through an arc until it faces east.  At first this method doesn't sound as good since it takes some time for the car to get turned by the grappling hook but lets take a closer look.  At the beginning of the turn, the car was going due north at 100mph.  At the end of the turn the car was doing 100mph due east.  All the speed that you were carrying north was converted to the east.  A perfect turn.

In real life you want the tires to act like a grappling hook as much as possible.  To do that, the tires need to be able to produce their maximal force.  They do that at a certain slip angle.  Go over that angle you lose grip and the potential to convert the momentum going in one direction to momentum going in another direction.  Tires are never going to be as good as a magical grappling hook so invariably you will have to slow down to get the maximal forces.  You may think, why not skid the car to slow down rather than use the brakes?  The problem with that is that the skidding tire produces less force so you won't be able to convert as much momentum going from one direction to another.  That's why I don't think that the skidding we see in Copse, Maggott's and Beckett's is realistic.  Then you add in the effect of overheating the tires and tire degradation and things get even worse.  I hope that explains better what I'm thinking.

[EX_stream_tuna]

GT11, yea I was mostly concerned with low speed corners too.  I agree that the two highest speed corners in the academy top times were unrealistic and way too dangerous to try in a real car anyway.

[Feldynn]

Found this link over at GTP, Countdown to GamesCom:

http://gamescom.eu.playstation.com/

Be interesting to see what new things we learn, though I'm not holding my breath for any groundbreaking announcements.  Not that I wouldn't appreciate finding out something groundbreaking, I'm just not going to get all giddy with expectation because we'll probably just get some new screenshots / videos and maybe some hints about what'll come out at the next "big show".

[DudeTuna]

Found this link over at GTP, Countdown to GamesCom:

http://gamescom.eu.playstation.com/

Be interesting to see what new things we learn, though I'm not holding my breath for any groundbreaking announcements.  Not that I wouldn't appreciate finding out something groundbreaking, I'm just not going to get all giddy with expectation because we'll probably just get some new screenshots / videos and maybe some hints about what'll come out at the next "big show".

This reminds me of this

Just announcing the announcement of an announcement.

[GoesTuna11]

[TunahCroonah]