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[Brindle]

Since recently (about a month or so now), I have decided to run aidless.  In doing so however, I noticed the car feels much differently than with ABS on.  I know, I know, it's supposed to feel different because ABS is used to help with braking.  The problem...  Well I'm talking about the car feeling different EVERY SINGLE PLACE ON TRACK!!!!

Here's what I think is going on, for me at least (would like to hear others thoughts as well).  We all know how ABS works, it grabs and releases the brake determined by the rotational speed difference in the wheels.  Now as far as I was aware, that would only occur under braking, but the car was different under every circumstance, braking, turning, on and off throttle (with no braking).  This lead me to believe that the ABS is working ALL THE TIME.  About 2 weeks ago, (i work in a auto parts store) I was reading an article on ABS and how it has evolved.  Contained in that article, it stated clearly how ABS was also used to control wheel spin under other circumstances other than braking (a sort of ASM if you will).

Is it possible that PD actually put that in the physics?  It may just be me, but the second Acedemy TT showed the difference in a huge, huge way.  At every corner with ABS off, it was a struggle to keep the car stable for good grip levels, but with ABS on, the stability was phenomenal!

The more practice I get though, the better all cars seem to drive for me, but I have not gone back to try ABS in any of them to compare. 

Is it just me?   

[EX_stream_tuna]

I would be very interested to see how far this extends, but I can say that I simply do not know enough to answer your question...

However, in GT5 for one of the NASCAR events, (Daytona) you could originally disable ABS and it made the cars faster around the oval.  (That proves it is on all the time, or was.)  Eventually, an update forced ABS On for this event and made it a bit harder to Gold.

I would seriously doubt ABS us on during accel, prefering the TCS feature.  But ABS is probably on during all braking, and some cornering, because g-forces may turn on ABS in turns if the game's aid thinks it is needed?

[Rek]

I wish you would ask a normal question like what's the best crimp for heavy bullets in a revolver. Or what's the best way to obtain proper bullet seating depth. Or how important is it to index a cartridge case in a bolt action rifle.

 

[ChromeTuna]

However, in GT5 for one of the NASCAR events, (Daytona) you could originally disable ABS and it made the cars faster around the oval.  (That proves it is on all the time, or was.)  Eventually, an update forced ABS On for this event and made it a bit harder to Gold.

Actually, ASM was forced on, and turning ABS off was the work around.

As for real life nanny controls. My 300C had a bunch of it, but could be turned off, if you knew the combination. It had an ESP button that would turn it off partially. But that's another topic.
When we had the snow a few months ago, I was still able to get around, although slowly, in that car, because when it sensed wheel spin, it would cut power, and even apply brakes to certain wheels, when I got sideways. You could feel it all happening, pretty abruptly. And of course you had the usual anti-lock action for braking. It was the use of the brakes during wheel spin, that tripped me out. That car was by far the most high tech, I ever had, it would even match the speed of the car in front of you, when using cruise control, and apply the brakes, if it got to close. You barely had to be in the driver's seat. 

[Feldynn]

If I remember right the thing in GT5 with Nascars was due to ASM and ABS being inextricably linked, there was a note in the scrolling tooltip that said something like "ASM will only work when ABS is set to 1 or higher, if no ABS then no ASM".  PD had ASM set to ON I think to reduce top speed while cornering which made you much slower on the large banked turns (not unlike how the AI drive) but you could for a while disable the ASM by disabling the ABS and run much faster making the events a lot easier.. until they changed it.

From a GT6 perspective there is definitely something going on, I haven't had nearly the same amount of experience without ABS as you (Brindle) but I can tell immediately there is some difference between ABS-1 and ABS-0 in terms of the car's handling beyond simply how well (or not) it stops.  I also think it's much more noticeable on Sports tires (probably Comfort too) than it is on Racing tires, though I suspect a large part of that is down to the new tire model GT6 has.

For one it seems like with identical brake bias settings some cars have a lot less stopping power without ABS but not because you have to be lighter on braking to avoid locking the tires though, it almost seemed like turning ABS off suddenly reduced the brake power at the very least.  I seem to remember trying it with the Caterham spec we ran in ToC a few weeks ago, turned off ABS and actually had to increase the brake numbers to get the car to stop properly.  

I'm sure there's other stuff going on with the handling too but can't remember enough to form sensible sounding sentences, so I may add more later in the week if and when I tinker with such things .

[MasterGT]

If you can form clear questions that I can send in to ask PDI what is going on, I will do my best to get clear answers for you.

This is something that we should be made aware of, so that we know what is going on and how it affects our driving.

[DudeTuna]

I have found I need to drive differently in 6 compared to 5 to achieve a decent lap time. And I believe it is this difference that makes no ABS quicker in 6. As stated in OP is is more difficult without ABS at first, but when you get the feel for it, it will shave time off. I have to add that unless the room excludes ABS I usually use it set to 1.

[Feldynn]

If you can form clear questions that I can send in to ask PDI what is going on, I will do my best to get clear answers for you.

This is something that we should be made aware of, so that we know what is going on and how it affects our driving.

I'm not sure if it's really an issue type thing that PD needs to address (at least maybe not right now), more so just an observation of how the game seems to work.

I guess from an informational perspective it might be useful to know exactly what ABS does from the game's perspective beyond simply preventing locking up the wheels under heavy braking? 

I seem to recall (at least in GT5) the tooltip mentions something about the higher the ABS setting the more extra grip is used for cornering, I forget exactly the wording and there's probably a similar one for GT6, if something similar is happening in GT6 is it only when braking or is it something that occurs at other times too.

[GoesTuna11]

Really it would be good for PD to let us know more about how their physics engine works as a whole.  Things like differences between online and offline physics should be documented.  What exactly each aid does should be explained.

I've always thought that ABS was a little magical in that it appeared to be able to decrease braking even when it is the engine that is slowing the engine down.  However I ran a few laps with ABS off and the engine still doesn't slow down the wheels enough so I'm no longer sure.

The rev-limiter is another one of those magical aids.  It prevents the engine from reving too high even when it's the wheels driving the engine and not the gas.

[BakedTuna]

I believe that many of today's cars have systems that are much more intertwined than we might first think. The sensation i get from not using ABS is one of pure mechanical interaction with the car. And in many cases as long as I do things correctly it is a faster relationship. These systems are in place in the name of the safety of the masses and if you know and understand the dynamics of driving a car at speed you can be better than the electronics at manipulating a vehicle around a track.

Starting to wonder if any of that made sense. 

[MasterGT]

The rev-limiter is another one of those magical aids.  It prevents the engine from reving too high even when it's the wheels driving the engine and not the gas.

And considering that it still lets the revs go 1-2K into the redline area.

[EX_stream_tuna]

I believe that many of today's cars have systems that are much more intertwined than we might first think. The sensation i get from not using ABS is one of pure mechanical interaction with the car. And in many cases as long as I do things correctly it is a faster relationship. These systems are in place in the name of the safety of the masses and if you know and understand the dynamics of driving a car at speed you can be better than the electronics at manipulating a vehicle around a track.

Starting to wonder if any of that made sense. 

absolutely, it did.  One thing where the driver will, presumably, always have the upper hand, is in knowing what is about to happen, or what you intend to happen next, and next, and so forth.

Any aid a car has, is reacting to what just happened, or what is happening now.  THey have a hard time determining what should happen next.  If you know you're going to load a car on one side immediately after the other, you get ready to flick your wrist.  Unless they take the driver away completely, that will never happen in any intelligent system.  Then, what is the point?

[EX_stream_tuna]

The rev-limiter is another one of those magical aids.  It prevents the engine from reving too high even when it's the wheels driving the engine and not the gas.

And considering that it still lets the revs go 1-2K into the redline area.

that is not always the case.  some cars cut you off right at redline, or only very slightly above.  ACR Viper being a good example.  Others let you go far beyond the visible redline.

That begs the question...

Is PD emulating the visible redline from what the manufacturer shows as their visible red area of the tach, and then making the cut-off for fuel occur at the manufacturer's cut-off level?  Considering it would have been much easier to program a game that treats all of the cars the same in this respect, there must have been some rhyme or reason behind it, and the above seems reasonable to me.


EDIT: Also, related to the question above, the reason a manufacturer would want to put a redline that is visibly lower than the actual fuel cut-off must be that they are nanny'ing you a little bit to prevent damage to your prize possession (or someone else's  ).  So, if you make someone think they should shift a little earlier than they actually must, it accomplishes that.