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[EX_stream_tuna]

@ Ex-Xboxfan

 Tried all three settings and it still sounds crappy! I use a PC sound system(Klipsch 2.1)for my game room. It sounds great for movies and other games i play. Kaz and PD has had five games to work on getting the sound close! If the sound on GT6 is not greatly improved it will be the last Gran Turismo game for me.

I have those for my pc. Nice speakers.

For GT5 gooder sound I think you need to get a surround receiver that does DTS. They are not that much money anymore and sound great for movies.

while using a surround system does make the overall emersion within the game more "real" feeling, it doesn't make the source wav files they used to produce the experience any better IMO.

If it was too raspy of a sound w/o surround then it just is very raspy all around you, which is a better experience for emersion, but doesn't sound like the real thing would.

[GoesTuna11]

The  FR-S, 86-GT, and BR-Z are the exact same cars except for the suspension settings (and maybe some styling).  Subaru and Toyota decided to use different suspension settings.  So if you put new suspensions in and set them up the same, they SHOULD perform the same.  If you are correct and the suspension settings are relative to the original settings then they WON'T perform the same since the original settings were different (or should have been).  That is pretty dumb.

[Feldynn]

I think what Ex means regarding the Ride Height on different suspension upgrades is that each suspension kit has a lower base ride height than the previous one, so if any car has a stock ride height of 10" then you apply the the Fixed Sports suspension the base ride height is lowered to 8" due to the better spring / shock package, the Height Adjustable kit would have a base ride height of say 6" and the Full Custom one a base ride height of 4".

The ride height counter of the adjustable kits only reference to the difference in current height from the kit's own base ride height.  So if you use a kit with a base ride height of 6" it still reads 0 for the ride height counter because it's neither higher or lower than the starting height for that kit (even though that starting height is 4" lower than stock).  

The easiest way to demonstrate it is to go to the garage and check the tuning menu of almost any production street car, make sure it's set to Stock suspension and take a look at it in the little turn table viewer mode, remember the gap between the bodywork and the wheel.  Go back to the tuning and put on the full custom suspension but leave the ride height at 0 / 0 then go back out to the turntable and wait for the car to rotate, on almost every car I've seen you can see right away a difference in the space between the wheel and body.

[EX_stream_tuna]

The  FR-S, 86-GT, and BR-Z are the exact same cars except for the suspension settings (and maybe some styling).  Subaru and Toyota decided to use different suspension settings.  So if you put new suspensions in and set them up the same, they SHOULD perform the same.  If you are correct and the suspension settings are relative to the original settings then they WON'T perform the same since the original settings were different (or should have been).  That is pretty dumb.

yea, I'm all for "shoulds" when it comes to PD, but as we know... that's just wishful thinking.

I'm just saying it's not guarenteed just because it's a should.  It may possibly be the same once we try it.

while photographic evidence was a good obvious way to see the difference between suspension types on the same car, I don't believe that would work to compare cars because the ride height differences may be only a milimeter or two.  That would be quite hard to see in a photograph.

so at this point you might be better off assuming that it will match between the cars until you feel like it really isn't panning out.

[Turbo-Tuna]

So what we're all discovering (or actually admitting openly and quantifying) is that GT is kind of a wannabe SIM. It has lots of nice things in it, but it's not up to par with real SIMs. It used shortcuts to avoid using real numbers and real technical adjustments. I still consider it a fun game and it provides great online racing, but it lacks in some areas.

The issue of these two cars (FR-S/BRZ) having the same suspension numbers in game would annoy me immensely if true, and I would absolutely not buy the BRZ. They have different road manners IRL, so they should also in the game. This should be reflected in the spring rates in game. The Toyota versions start at 6.0F/2.0R, a ridiculous setting which makes it very unstable in some corners. Upgraded settings are 7.5/3.0 and 10.5/3.5. Crazy. With fully adjustable, setting the rates at 5.5/3.5 is much better. Now the Subaru should have different numbers, maybe 4.0/2.5 stock (instead of 6.0/2.0). This would make it (the Toyota versions anyway) very stable (I think), more so than the Toyota version anyway.

Here I go again. How many times have I used the word 'should'? Someday, I'm going to abandon logic and enjoy everything the world has to offer.

[EX_stream_tuna]

I think what Ex means regarding the Ride Height on different suspension upgrades is that each suspension kit has a lower base ride height than the previous one, so if any car has a stock ride height of 10" then you apply the the Fixed Sports suspension the base ride height is lowered to 8" due to the better spring / shock package, the Height Adjustable kit would have a base ride height of say 6" and the Full Custom one a base ride height of 4".

Yep!

The ride height counter of the adjustable kits only reference to the difference in current height from the kit's own base ride height.  So if you use a kit with a base ride height of 6" it still reads 0 for the ride height counter because it's neither higher or lower than the starting height for that kit (even though that starting height is 4" lower than stock).  

Yep, 0 just means default, not "stock".

The easiest way to demonstrate it is to go to the garage and check the tuning menu of almost any production street car, make sure it's set to Stock suspension and take a look at it in the little turn table viewer mode, remember the gap between the bodywork and the wheel.  Go back to the tuning and put on the full custom suspension but leave the ride height at 0 / 0 then go back out to the turntable and wait for the car to rotate, on almost every car I've seen you can see right away a difference in the space between the wheel and body.

actually that's what I did with the photo mode early on in GT5.  Made sure my vantage point and zoom were identical and then switched back and forth between the pics to see the differences in space between tires and wheel wells.

[Feldynn]

Also regarding the Scion, Toyota, Subaru debate I have some numbers from the game.

Stock Suspension
Car           Toyota       Scion         Subaru
Springs       6 / 2         6 / 2          6 / 2
Dampers     1              1               1
Roll bar      1               1              1

Fixed Suspension
Car           Toyota       Scion         Subaru
Springs       9 / 3         9 / 3         9 / 3
Dampers     1              1              1
Roll bar      1               1              1

Height Adjustable Suspension
Car           Toyota       Scion         Subaru
Springs       9 / 3         9 / 3         9 / 3
Dampers     2              2              2
Roll bar       1              1              1

Fully Customisable Suspension
Car           Toyota       Scion           Subaru
Springs      10.5 / 3.5    10.5 / 3.5   10.5 / 3.5
Damp Ext    5               5               5
Damp Ext    5               5               5
Roll bar       3               3               3

High Speed Ring Banked Cornering Test
Ran a couple of timed laps in each car to gauge stability on banked corners.
Tires: Sports Hard (stock)
Toyota = FAIL
Scion   = FAIL
Subaru = FAIL

In the interests of being "fair and balanced" I grabbed a couple of other cars from my garage, bone stock with Sports Hard tires if needed.  Made sure they had similarly soft rear springs and went for a trip around the HSR.

Toyota Altezza RS200 '98
Stock Suspension
Springs       2.2 / 1.9
Dampers     1
Roll bar       1

HSR Test - PASS


Toyota MR-2 G-Limited '97
Stock Suspension
Springs       1.6 / 2.4
Dampers     1
Roll bar       1

HSR Test - PASS

I specifically chose the MR-2 because it's mid engine and I know it can be a handful even when tuned, but I was really surprised because it was smooth as silk going through the banks!

Conclusions
I believe that because the other cars I tested have better balanced stock suspensions (though not actually better rear springs) so they passed the tests without any problem.

The Toyota, Scion and Subaru are (in this game) essentially nothing more than almost identical twins.  If they have significantly different suspensions in real life they DO NOT in this game.

I did like how the Subaru sounded WAY more than the other two and the minor interior / exterior differences are more pleasing to my eye as well.

Your results may vary.


This presentation was brought to you today by the numbers 8 and 6 and the letters BRZ, GT, FR and S.

[EX_stream_tuna]

wow thanks for doing that Feldynn.

ok so now we know that the numbers are all set the same, which they SHOULDN'T be (there's that word again)

by "Fail" did you mean that they just didn't drive well or that they failed to all act the same?

Did they all have the same levle of "fail" in them?

and most importantly, when they all had the identical settings and you drove them, did they all feel teh same to YOU?  That last part is somewhat subjective, but we all here would trust your "feelings" I think.

[Turbo-Tuna]

So the BRZ is useless. Thanks Feldynn.

The other cars performed well because their suspension balance matched their weight balance, I think.

[Feldynn]

wow thanks for doing that Feldynn.

ok so now we know that the numbers are all set the same, which they SHOULDN'T be (there's that word again)

by "Fail" did you mean that they just didn't drive well or that they failed to all act the same?

Did they all have the same levle of "fail" in them?

and most importantly, when they all had the identical settings and you drove them, did they all feel teh same to YOU?  That last part is somewhat subjective, but we all here would trust your "feelings" I think.

Ahh yes, I should explain "FAIL" a bit more.  Basically by "FAIL" I mean they all tried to kill me on the banked turns with the stock suspensions .  So in essence they all failed to perform acceptably on banked turns due to identical settings.

I just wanted to get at least one timed lap without any excessive handling issues (i.e a good fast but smooth and clean lap), the only way to make it around successfully was to slow down WAY more than should be necessary to take those corners and I had to be really really careful not to oversteer too much and cause the back end to flick around.  

Every lap was at best slow and wobbly in all 3 cars, I did the Subaru test last and initially thought it felt slightly less loose but I jumped back in the Scion to clarify and had the same results (i.e. I was compensating for the suck-factor by slowing down more or taking a different line because I expected the car to spin).

The MR-2 I ran had maybe 15hp more (it was a used car with an oil change, the others were brand new with no oil change) and was a few kgs lighter.  I don't recall the exact times but I think I was running about 1'27 flat with the Triplets (give or take a tenth) which were difficult laps and then very easy low 1'22s with the MR-2, the small power / weight difference won't count for 4-5 seconds per lap even with my inconsistent driving .

So far as I can tell they all had basically the same amount of fail, they were all reasonable on the flat S bend section between the bridge and tunnel but extremely twitchy and nervous on the banked corners to the point you almost had to coast through to avoid a spin out.

Would I drive one in a race?  Only if I can adjust the springs to an acceptably safe balance.

ADDITIONAL NOTE:
Bear in mind I'm still using a controller so I may not notice subtle things wheel users do and vice versa.

[Feldynn]

For the sake of experimental continuity (and I'm pretty sure Turbo has tested adjustable suspensions in the Toyota and Scion already) I decided to drop in the Full Custom suspension into the BRZ-S.

Going by visuals I'm guessing the original stock ride height is about +15mm to +20mm with the Full Custom kit, so with that in mind I applied the patent pending "Feldstein Sports Shock and Spring" package to the car at the following settings.

Subaru BRZ-S
Full Custom Suspension
Ride Height  +10 / +10
Springs       5 / 4
Damp Ext    2
Damp Cmp   2
Roll bar       1

5 was the lowest the front spring would go.  Also added two minor power bolt ons to bring it right in line with the MR-2 and the Lap time jumped up from circa 1'27 to a best time of 1'22.9, a bit less half a second of that increase was down to the additional +15hp, just the suspension alone got me running easy low 1'23s. 

But this is all just observations based on a few quick tests and doesn't do diddly to fix the real problem, which is the Subaru SHOULD (there I said it too ) have a better stock and default suspension than the Toyota / Scion versions but it doesn't.  I may wander over to the Deathstar at some point and post it in the bugs thread or something .

[Feldynn]

Oh I did find one redeeming feature of the Subaru, it's got a slightly different aero package than the Toyota and Scion (I think) insofar as it gets a bitchin' WRX style wing on the back that makes it look awfully good .

[LastLeafFan]

I must say that when I raced last night it was the 1rd time I tried out the new 2.08 update and jumped right into the fire with a couple laps before race start..

The first thing I noticed was the FFB of the wheel. I went over a curb with 2 wheels and the sensation was amazing. What a difference and maybe that's why I did better last night. Well, you never know.

Has anyone else noticed the FFB change?

[ChromeTuna]

I did a little testing after getting the 2.08 update, and this....


...is no longer possible from a standing start.

BUT, the same odd ball ride height still yields better rear traction, just not as prominent as it use to be.

With the front slammed and rear all the way up, on RS tires, there is zero spinning, but no wheelie.

Reverse it with the front all the way up, and rear slammed, it'll will spin on launch, same tires.

So it appears they didn't completely fix the ride height issue, just toned it down a bit.

[LooneyTuna]

Has anyone else noticed the FFB change?

The what?